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	<title>Comments on: Socrates, individualism and conformity</title>
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	<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/</link>
	<description>What History’s Greatest Military Strategist Can Teach Us About Success And Failure</description>
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		<title>By: Jag (defensive punster)</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2354</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jag (defensive punster)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Vincent - thanks for that link. Most interesting. 
We should definitely pay close attention to Orwell..]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vincent &#8211; thanks for that link. Most interesting.<br />
We should definitely pay close attention to Orwell..</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2335</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vincent]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jag, I find the &quot;Eyes of Honesty&quot; idea very interesting. It&#039;s very much a literal interpretation of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.livablestreets.com/streetswiki/eyes-on-the-street&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;eyes on the street&quot;&lt;/a&gt; principle of urban planning. It seems Big Brother was on to something after all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jag, I find the &#8220;Eyes of Honesty&#8221; idea very interesting. It&#8217;s very much a literal interpretation of the <a href="http://www.livablestreets.com/streetswiki/eyes-on-the-street" rel="nofollow">&#8220;eyes on the street&#8221;</a> principle of urban planning. It seems Big Brother was on to something after all.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Crotchety</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2334</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr. Crotchety]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2334</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wait, no. I&#039;m thinking of librarians.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait, no. I&#8217;m thinking of librarians.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Crotchety</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2333</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr. Crotchety]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do Libertarians in California have to go to Iowa to get married?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do Libertarians in California have to go to Iowa to get married?</p>
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		<title>By: andreaskluth</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2328</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andreaskluth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2328</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Christopher and Cheri have gone in a very interesting direction here: 1) Was Socrates a situational ethicist? 2) Was he a Libertarian, or how did he feel about them?

Hmm. The Platonic Socrates (ie, the Socrates we know as the character in Plato&#039;s dialogues) was the ultimate absolutist. That&#039;s what his Theory of the Forms was about: Every value has an unchanging and absolute form out there that we approximate. None of that contextual nonsense. 

But Socrates the person might have been (we know very little about him) a lot more &quot;situational&quot;. There were two anti-democratic revolutions (ie, brief dictatorships) in Athens during his time, which became crucial as the backdrop to his trial, and his behavior was, well, remarkably adaptable, shall we say. 

Libertarians: The Platonic Socrates had no room for them. Free thinking, yes, but only for the &quot;Philosopher Kings&quot;. The rest of the population had to know its place, as in Aldous Huxley&#039;s Brave New World. 

So you see that Yogi Berra had a leg up on Socrates: &quot;In theory there&#039;s no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is.&quot; In theory, Socrates was an absolutist, in practice he might have been a wee bit situational here and there. In theory, Socrates was a free-thinking libertarian; in practice, his ideas would have led to the end of liberty.

All of which is YET ANOTHER reason to study the man and to understand his relevance to us today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christopher and Cheri have gone in a very interesting direction here: 1) Was Socrates a situational ethicist? 2) Was he a Libertarian, or how did he feel about them?</p>
<p>Hmm. The Platonic Socrates (ie, the Socrates we know as the character in Plato&#8217;s dialogues) was the ultimate absolutist. That&#8217;s what his Theory of the Forms was about: Every value has an unchanging and absolute form out there that we approximate. None of that contextual nonsense. </p>
<p>But Socrates the person might have been (we know very little about him) a lot more &#8220;situational&#8221;. There were two anti-democratic revolutions (ie, brief dictatorships) in Athens during his time, which became crucial as the backdrop to his trial, and his behavior was, well, remarkably adaptable, shall we say. </p>
<p>Libertarians: The Platonic Socrates had no room for them. Free thinking, yes, but only for the &#8220;Philosopher Kings&#8221;. The rest of the population had to know its place, as in Aldous Huxley&#8217;s Brave New World. </p>
<p>So you see that Yogi Berra had a leg up on Socrates: &#8220;In theory there&#8217;s no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is.&#8221; In theory, Socrates was an absolutist, in practice he might have been a wee bit situational here and there. In theory, Socrates was a free-thinking libertarian; in practice, his ideas would have led to the end of liberty.</p>
<p>All of which is YET ANOTHER reason to study the man and to understand his relevance to us today.</p>
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		<title>By: andreaskluth</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2327</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andreaskluth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2327</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &quot;larger truths&quot; are a Pandora&#039;s box. Who decides what&#039;s larger? In my years in China, I got an earful about larger truths from the cadres. Then again, sometimes there really ARE truths that are larger....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;larger truths&#8221; are a Pandora&#8217;s box. Who decides what&#8217;s larger? In my years in China, I got an earful about larger truths from the cadres. Then again, sometimes there really ARE truths that are larger&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: andreaskluth</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2326</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[andreaskluth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 03:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was worried about that, and placing my bets that the Hannibal Blog&#039;s readership would know it&#039;s British for ... well, you know. It sounds better than the American equivalent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was worried about that, and placing my bets that the Hannibal Blog&#8217;s readership would know it&#8217;s British for &#8230; well, you know. It sounds better than the American equivalent.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2319</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good for you that you are a Libertarian, for you and your fellow Libertarians are the needed counterweight to those who advocate government intervention everywhere. Somewhere in the middle between the philosophies of you and them lies the Truth about how societies work. 

From what you say, Socrates would have been a moral absolutist. So, had he been a ruler (not the measuring kind) he would therefore have been a despot, for, as a moral absolutist, he wouldn&#039;t have tolerated the compromises so necessary for a democracy. 

And, as a despot, would not Socrates have dealt harshly with Libertarians, such as you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good for you that you are a Libertarian, for you and your fellow Libertarians are the needed counterweight to those who advocate government intervention everywhere. Somewhere in the middle between the philosophies of you and them lies the Truth about how societies work. </p>
<p>From what you say, Socrates would have been a moral absolutist. So, had he been a ruler (not the measuring kind) he would therefore have been a despot, for, as a moral absolutist, he wouldn&#8217;t have tolerated the compromises so necessary for a democracy. </p>
<p>And, as a despot, would not Socrates have dealt harshly with Libertarians, such as you?</p>
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		<title>By: Cheri</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2316</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cheri]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:04:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Christopher,
Though by no means a Socratic scholar, I will jump in here and say no, he wasn&#039;t. Obnoxious as it appears he could be, and finding himself at the center of ethical inquiry, he stayed true to his Truths.

Impressive to be sure, considering his circumstances: surrounded by the  polis in all its &lt;i&gt;group individualism&lt;/i&gt;, having little tolerance for dissenting opinion. 

His accusers remind me of some of America&#039;s finest &lt;i&gt;liberal&lt;/i&gt;democrats today championing the liberal agenda while trashing individual thought.

That&#039;s one reason I am a Libertarian. Hooray for Socrates.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Christopher,<br />
Though by no means a Socratic scholar, I will jump in here and say no, he wasn&#8217;t. Obnoxious as it appears he could be, and finding himself at the center of ethical inquiry, he stayed true to his Truths.</p>
<p>Impressive to be sure, considering his circumstances: surrounded by the  polis in all its <i>group individualism</i>, having little tolerance for dissenting opinion. </p>
<p>His accusers remind me of some of America&#8217;s finest <i>liberal</i>democrats today championing the liberal agenda while trashing individual thought.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s one reason I am a Libertarian. Hooray for Socrates.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2314</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Christopher]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 04:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2314</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;.......as I get older I see more complexities........&quot;&lt;/i&gt; 

Me too. I see also that the greater, or ultimate truth of anything, lies usually near the middle of two opposing extremes. Also that the morality of an action, whether conforming, non-conforming, killing, stealing, lying, or anything else, should be judged in the light of its circumstances - in terms of situational ethics. 

Was Socrates a situational ethicist?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;&#8230;.as I get older I see more complexities&#8230;&#8230;..&#8221;</i> </p>
<p>Me too. I see also that the greater, or ultimate truth of anything, lies usually near the middle of two opposing extremes. Also that the morality of an action, whether conforming, non-conforming, killing, stealing, lying, or anything else, should be judged in the light of its circumstances &#8211; in terms of situational ethics. </p>
<p>Was Socrates a situational ethicist?</p>
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		<title>By: Jag (defensive punster)</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2311</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jag (defensive punster)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2311</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[PS - trivial point on language - not sure bugger off translates to American English?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS &#8211; trivial point on language &#8211; not sure bugger off translates to American English?</p>
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		<title>By: Jag (defensive punster)</title>
		<link>http://andreaskluth.org/2009/07/06/socrates-individualism-and-conformity/#comment-2310</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jag (defensive punster)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andreaskluth.org/?p=2716#comment-2310</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Andreas - another great post on meaty issues... apologies in advance for lack for lack of brevity: 

Re &quot;they were being biological organisms that keep in mind&quot; - that is a crucial point - we are creatures of habit and have the habits of creatures baked into us. One refinement, we humans often make decisions without the intervention of out concious deliberative minds. We frequently behave instinctively (from out creaturely habits). 

Re the influence of non-concious and clearly illogical factors in human behavior - my favorite example is the &quot;Eyes of Honesty&quot; 
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/magazine/10section1C.t-3.html
To summarize the presence of a poster showing a person watching you can substantially change behavior - even though everyone consciously knows the eyes are 2 dimensional. 

Re - social pressure - its not all bleak - you could think of socially normative pressures as being like any other tool - can be used for good or bad. As Sunstein writes about in Nudge - you can use herd instincts to encourage people to choose behaviors that support  social good. And lets not forget he and his fellow behavioral economists are deep in the Obama administration.  

Finally re &quot;larger truths&quot; - I think that could just mean more useful  goals, not necessarily truer ones.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Andreas &#8211; another great post on meaty issues&#8230; apologies in advance for lack for lack of brevity: </p>
<p>Re &#8220;they were being biological organisms that keep in mind&#8221; &#8211; that is a crucial point &#8211; we are creatures of habit and have the habits of creatures baked into us. One refinement, we humans often make decisions without the intervention of out concious deliberative minds. We frequently behave instinctively (from out creaturely habits). </p>
<p>Re the influence of non-concious and clearly illogical factors in human behavior &#8211; my favorite example is the &#8220;Eyes of Honesty&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/magazine/10section1C.t-3.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/magazine/10section1C.t-3.html</a><br />
To summarize the presence of a poster showing a person watching you can substantially change behavior &#8211; even though everyone consciously knows the eyes are 2 dimensional. </p>
<p>Re &#8211; social pressure &#8211; its not all bleak &#8211; you could think of socially normative pressures as being like any other tool &#8211; can be used for good or bad. As Sunstein writes about in Nudge &#8211; you can use herd instincts to encourage people to choose behaviors that support  social good. And lets not forget he and his fellow behavioral economists are deep in the Obama administration.  </p>
<p>Finally re &#8220;larger truths&#8221; &#8211; I think that could just mean more useful  goals, not necessarily truer ones.</p>
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